Correct Geometry - Aspect Ratio for different systems

RetroArch General
#21

The screenshots look wrong or in your emu? I just checked and metroid morph ball looks fine. That said and as you already noticed, you are not going to get all the sprites perfectly matching a geometry correct aspect ratio in all games. Some games mix sprites of different inherent PAR so you ultimately need to comply to one of the above methods. For example Super Mario Bros 3 screenshots above, for me clouds, the 3 GUI boxes, coins and koopas are extremely vertical stretched, but I finally complied with coin boxes, mario sprite PAR, also checked some other games to see what was the general intended PAR for the NES. I don’t know if other games shooted to other PARs rather than 1:1, haven’t checked every game.

I can’t speak for badly calibrated CRT’s but a proper calibrated CRT has a sample rate of 12.2727, which should be the target for half serious developers, if you were to play games of these developers on your correctly calibrated CRT then you would be displaying correct graphics. Others though chose the easy way out and designed everything to 1:1 PAR (WYSIWYG - no standard?), so you would play the games stretched on your CRT TV, now not anymore in emulation, unlike CRT, modern (all?) LCDs are 1:1 ratio so you simply set your core PAR to 1:1 and you are good to go.

Out of curiosity, where do you get the 1.24 PAR value? NES PAR is 8:7 = 1.14. I’m actually ignoring display aspect ratios since it heavily depends on resolution, and RetroArch (or Nestopia) don’t quite want to make overscan an open useable parameter (how much is it cropped? how much is it supposed to crop? how much can I crop?) Simply leave overscan off and work with full signal values (256x240) so you know where to go. My screenshots are multiple of 224 (although calculations are made with 240px wide in mind), while overscan being off so I think they didn’t disable the auto-default nestopia core overscan, a real mess, yes.

BTW, the link for the CRT aspect ratio standards are down since a few months ago, so I updated the link with an archived one, also made a PDF copy just in case.

#22

My point is that there isn’t really any “right,” only certain correct parameters. Check out Castlevania - looks like they had a bunch of different artists using their own standards. Certain objects look round or square as they’re supposed to at certain ratios, but other objects look stretched. The Metroid morph ball is vertically stretched at 16:15, just run to the left from the start and it’s immediately apparent. There is no single ratio that NES developers used. Often, different ratios were used by artists working on the same game. There is no single ratio that CRT tvs used. Developers just did whatever they wanted with very little consideration for how the graphics would look to the end user since there was no way to tell what kind of TV they would be using.

I can’t speak for badly calibrated CRT’s but a proper calibrated CRT has a sample rate of 12.2727, which should be the target for half serious developers, if you were to play games of these developers on your correctly calibrated CRT then you would be displaying correct graphics. Others though chose the easy way out and designed everything to 1:1 PAR (WYSIWYG - no standard?), so you would play the games stretched on your CRT TV, now not anymore in emulation, unlike CRT, modern (all?) LCDs are 1:1 ratio so you simply set your core PAR to 1:1 and you are good to go.

It has more to do with how much is cropped than the sample rate. All TVs cropped different amounts; there’s no standard when it comes to how the image was cropped and then stretched.

Out of curiosity, where do you get the 1.24 PAR value? NES PAR is 8:7 = 1.14.

1.24 is the PAR when no overscan is cropped and the image is stretched to fill 4:3. Anything below this number and above 1 is fine.

I’m actually ignoring display aspect ratios since it heavily depends on resolution, and RetroArch (or Nestopia) don’t quite want to make overscan an open useable parameter (how much is it cropped? how much is it supposed to crop? how much can I crop?) Simply leave overscan off and work with full signal values (256x240) so you know where to go. My screenshots are multiple of 224 (although calculations are made with 240px wide in mind), while overscan being off so I think they didn’t disable the auto-default nestopia core overscan, a real mess, yes. [/quote]

If you don’t want to mess with overscan than the correct PAR is 1.24 (not internal aspect but how the pixels wind up being displayed). That’s how the image looks when nothing is cropped and the image fills the 4:3 area.

#23

I can only repeat what I said, there are sprites made with 1:1 PAR and some in 8:7, those are the ones that make sense, everything else I’m not even going to bother because a pretty disturbed developer decided that a sprite should be in 6:5 or any other ratio he took from his ass. Anyways most games fall into those 4 categories, are you sure the orb should be spherical? I do know explosions tend to be circular so I give that more relevance, plus all the environment is perfectly square based and I simply find it more pleasing, it also aligns with the other games’ ratio I tested. Aren’t these enough reasons?

Now if you want to mimic (as I figured by reading your other posts) the old nostalgia look, that depends a lot from many variable things like used CRT, console region, etc but that’s not the aim of this thread. I’m from PAL land but I don’t want to play slowed down PAL games anymore, and in the same vein I don’t want to play badly stretched games because most developers didn’t care making anamorphic sprites.

That’s not how PAR works, but still, you described example 3: 240*(4/3)x240 = 320x240 (4:3 DAR with NAB, old TV look) Still don’t know where you get that PAR figure.

I made this thread to clear up the confussion many people like you had. If you believe that your correct PAR is 1.24, use that PAR, but that’s not how it works. If you have question I’ll be pleased to answer but if you want to throw different findings than mine, or simply interpret “nostalgic” as “correct” then you can make another thread to shoot for nostalgia accuracy, but in my eyes that’s nothing more than 4:3 DAR with full signal (nothing to do with PAR).

#24

What games have you tested? Because numerous games I’ve looked at change too much in game to assume that there is any “correct” ratio being applied. I mentioned Castlevania earlier. SMB3 is another good example - certain things like the three squares at the bottom should be square, but if you set the ratio to make them square then all the ? blocks become rectangular. I think they just didn’t worry much about ratios and consistency back then because it was all going to be cropped, stretched and distorted by the TV anyway.

Now if you want to mimic (as I figured by reading your other posts) the old nostalgia look, that depends a lot from many variable things like used CRT, console region, etc but that’s not the aim of this thread. I’m from PAL land but I don’t want to play slowed down PAL games anymore, and in the same vein I don’t want to play badly stretched games because most developers didn’t care making anamorphic sprites.

Pixel aspect ratio seems to have more than one definition. I understand it to mean the ratio of the pixel’s width to its height, but people also use it to mean the ratio of the screen, in pixels. Around 1.24:1 is the ratio of the pixel’s width to it’s height when the image fills the 4:3 area and no overscan is cropped.

#25

Is it possible to recover the OP, or at least get a copy of it? I don’t have any backup and it’s the work of many months of research between Vague Rant and me, aside the thread has little meaning without it.

#27

Thank goodness!

OP is recovered and backed up.

Edit: btw, it looks like Sega Saturn had also a 8:7 aspect ratio. It’s not stated on the Pin Eight web, but after some tests it surely complies to that ratio or a near one. Some games simply took the easy way out and opted for 1:1 like Astal or DragonBall Z Legend. Some games have mixed aspect ratio sprites (common thing in the past) like Tryrush Deppy, but most of the sprites conform to 8:7.

#28

Hi! Is there a setting I can use that covers all bases well enough without having to manically switch out a set of numbers every time I launch a different game? Also, these numbers are tailored for 1080p displays. I have a bit smaller display, 1280x720. How do I make them work for me?

#29

Set aspect ratio to core provided, and set integer scale to ON. Works well for me.

#30

How about Crop Overscan? On or off?

#31

Crop overscan is kinda weird. It does different things depending on the core selected. Because of this, it’s going away as an overall option and will be replaced with core options.

I recommend leaving it off, though you may get some garbage on the edges of the screen in NES games and some slight letterboxing on SNES.

#32

hobolarche, as I explained to another user in the other thread, you can adapt the formula to any resolution. Here is the post a bit more step-by-step explanation than my thread’s top post.

I share your pain, I still use one of those too (1366x768). This is the formula for certain wide SNES games: 256*(8/7)x240 In that case if you adjust height to integer values, your game screen will end being very small compared to the TV. So I opt to use the full height; TV height resolution divided by game’s height resolution (768/224=3.43) gets you the scaling factor. So (2563.43(8/7)=1002) Use a resolution of 1002x768, use 182 and 0 for x and y offsets.

For these calculation I use a simple AHK script included in the thread.

If you want per-game settings you will need to ask RetroArch developers for that. That is the main reason I and many other people use front-ends. At worst, you can automatize calculations with a script so you don’t need to do those everytime.

Core provided means nothing else than “what the original emulator developers decided”, which in my book is equal to “there be dragons”.

edit: as for Crop Overscan, I normally turn it on for the mere reason of maximizing the gaming area on the TV screen.

#33

[QUOTE=Dogway;18410]hobolarche, as I explained to another user in the other thread, you can adapt the formula to any resolution. Here is the post a bit more step-by-step explanation than my thread’s top post.

If you want per-game settings you will need to ask RetroArch developers for that. That is the main reason I and many other people use front-ends. At worst, you can automatize calculations with a script so you don’t need to do those everytime.

Core provided means nothing else than “what the original emulator developers decided”, which in my book is equal to “there be dragons”.

edit: as for Crop Overscan, I normally turn it on for the mere reason of maximizing the gaming area on the TV screen.[/QUOTE]

Turns out my screen does support 1366x768 and not just 1280x720, so I made it easy for myself and used your settings and it seems to work great. Can’t quite wrap my head around that piece of calculation though (never was the brightest when it comes to math).

Here are two quick images with GPU screenshot disabled:

#34

That’s fine, just remember 90% of SNES catalogue is 1:1 PAR including mega man, you only want to use that custom ratio for certain games, mostly console ports of arcade games.

#35

I tried calculating the correct numbers for 1:1 PAR instead of 8:7 PAR for 1366x768 but, as I said, I just can’t wrap my head around it. You did write in your original post that RetroArch has an option for 1:1 PAR, where would I find that?

#36

1:1 PAR means; the original input as it is, without involving any kind of stretch. It is found along the other aspect ratios, just after/before “Core Provided”, etc You will find it enclosed in brackets after the Display Aspect Ratio, just like 4:3 (1:1 PAR). Simply pretend the 4:3 is not there, because it means nothing as far as this thread is concerned (we are all about PAR not DAR).

#37

[QUOTE=Dogway;18420]1:1 PAR means; the original input as it is, without involving any kind of stretch. It is found along the other aspect ratios, just after/before “Core Provided”, etc You will find it enclosed in brackets after the Display Aspect Ratio, just like 4:3 (1:1). Simply pretend the 4:3 is not there, because it means nothing as far as this thread is concerned (we are all about PAR not DAR).[/QUOTE]

That easy, huh? Use 1:1 in the settings 99% of the time and switch it out for the 8:7 (1:1 PAR) numbers for the occasional game. Since I only use a couple of systems I only need to bother with SNES and GENESIS, unless there are any other systems that deviate from 1:1 than the ones listed in the OP.

#38

The other way around. Use X:Y (1:1 PAR) for 90% of games and switch out to the custom ratio discussed above (in case of SNES) for the occasional wide game.

1:1 PAR means the pixel is as tall as it is wide, or in other words, square perfect. That’s the default (internal) signal output in emulators, so it’s like saying “don’t do any stretching to the image”. But when I said “internal” I meant “internal”, because RetroArch may default to stretched settings (like “Core Provided”) by default, so you always need to explicitly disable any default stretching being applied.

There are more systems that might not use 1:1 PAR, Master System, Game Gear, Sega Saturn, CPS1,2,3, it is still an on-research topic. Check the OP, ask if you have any trouble.

#39

[QUOTE=hunterk;18408]Crop overscan is kinda weird. It does different things depending on the core selected. Because of this, it’s going away as an overall option and will be replaced with core options.

I recommend leaving it off, though you may get some garbage on the edges of the screen in NES games and some slight letterboxing on SNES.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this recommendation. I never really understood why crop overscan was even an option in emulators. It’s an artifact of the CRT era that no longer makes any sense in a world of digital displays. If you want to “crop overscan,” the right way to do it IMO is by using the TV’s controls.

#40

[QUOTE=Dogway;18410]hobolarche, as I explained to another user in the other thread, you can adapt the formula to any resolution. Here is the post a bit more step-by-step explanation than my thread’s top post.

If you want per-game settings you will need to ask RetroArch developers for that. That is the main reason I and many other people use front-ends. At worst, you can automatize calculations with a script so you don’t need to do those everytime.

Core provided means nothing else than “what the original emulator developers decided”, which in my book is equal to “there be dragons”.

edit: as for Crop Overscan, I normally turn it on for the mere reason of maximizing the gaming area on the TV screen.[/QUOTE]

set monitor to 720p and turn integer scale on and crop overscan off, the image will fill the 4:3 area perfectly.

Alternately, you can use your TV’s controls to stretch the image to fill the screen, though this is somewhat cumbersome. However, most TVs save settings for different inputs so if you dedicate one of your HDMIs to 720p and then use the TVs crop overscan or stretch controls you don’t have to set it every time. That’s what I’m doing currently with my Retropie and it works beautifully, I just had to do the initial setup and now everything is automatic.

edit: just saw you are going for the 8:7 thing.

#41

[QUOTE=Nesguy;21266]set monitor to 720p and turn integer scale on and crop overscan off, the image will fill the 4:3 area perfectly.

Alternately, you can use your TV’s controls to stretch the image to fill the screen, though this is somewhat cumbersome. However, most TVs save settings for different inputs so if you dedicate one of your HDMIs to 720p and then use the TVs crop overscan or stretch controls you don’t have to set it every time. That’s what I’m doing currently with my Retropie and it works beautifully, I just had to do the initial setup and now everything is automatic.[/QUOTE]

There are many things off with that approach.

Setting integer ON means upscaling will stop as soon as integer values can’t be found, in other words you will be left with black margins. On top of that, by not cropping “overscan” (technically NAB) you are thickening those borders. In the end you are playing at best in a 50" display with the experience of a 32" one.

Now to fix that you say you go to TV service menu (you should never touch these tbh) and stretch the image with whatever TV’s internal scaling method is (on the other hand nothing retroarch scale shaders can’t do). And since game resolutions (integer scaling) and overscan (borders) varies on a system or even game by game basis you end up having to tune your TV for each one if you don’t want either to crop game content or have black borders…

Personally I prefer to touch configuration files only once for each system and stick with it, no messing with TV, besides not everybody have multiple HDMI inputs, for instance I only have one.