Back in the CRT club! How to make 240p work with RA?

General Off-Topic
#16

Well, I’m dumb. Looks like the hardware I’m using just won’t support 3840x240@120Hz or 3840x480@60Hz. From the spec sheet for the NUC6CAYS:

-HDMI 2.0 through a MegaChipsMCDP2800-BCT DisplayPort 1.2a to HDMI 2.0 Level Shifter/Protocol Converter (LSPCON)

…

-VGA graphics through an ITE IT6516BFN DisplayPort to VGA bridge

So it looks like it’s just converting DisplayPort to VGA in order to get VGA. Lame. :frowning: Looks like this CRT is going in the closet until I can get some better hardware.

On the other hand, this exercise has taught me that the LCD can match or exceed the CRT in every aspect of picture quality except for motion blur, black level and viewing angles, given the right shader setup.

CRT advantages:

-NO motion blur

-viewing angles

-black level (technically, the LCD has better black levels, but not after cranking up the backlight to compensate for scanlines)

Edit: also, no input lag!

LCD advantages:

-contrast ratio

-peak brightness

-perfect screen geometry

-better picture uniformity

-ease of use: size, weight and driver/hardware compatibility.

#17

I guess there are more advantages for CRTs. One that you missed is they have no fixed pixel resolution and no input lag. I’d add they don’t look sterile and I could go on, but I’ll leave it at that :slight_smile:

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#18

Nice video, although I was surprised they didn’t discuss motion blur. The input lag is definitely a major advantage, although with RA’s run ahead feature it’s possible to get less input lag than even the real thing via a CRT, but it requires some fiddling, and has a high computing cost. Hard GPU sync can get you within 1 frame or less of lag if your display is fast enough.

As far as the sterility goes, shaders can help a lot, although it’s easy to overdo it. I think I’ve managed to match the static image quality on the CRT, and maybe even improve on it a bit. Actually, the PC CRT and the LCD are very similar in terms of sharpness, and both benefit from a very slight amount of blur IMO. In motion, of course, it’s a completely different story, CRT wins hands down.

#19

Another great thing about CRTs: no matter what kind of whack resolution is being output to the monitor, I can always just use the CRT’s vertical and horizontal size adjustments to make the image fill the screen. It’s a little annoying to resize the image manually, but it’s a decent workaround until I can get a computer with proper VGA output.

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#20

It’s actually pretty amazing how sharp this CRT display is; with the interlacing shader applied there’s virtually no difference in sharpness when displaying 240p compared to the 1080p LCD with scanlines.

Still, the image looks better on the CRT. I’ve been speculating that this is due to either the CRT flicker and/or the way phosphors emit light compared to the LCD’s backlight + shutters. This results in an image that is inherently easier on the eyes and/or better at reducing the harshness of the high-frequency content in pixel art. It also goes without saying that the motion clarity is incredible. This display also shows a lot of halation due to the thick, flat glass over the main screen surface, which is cool.

I’ll try to get some decent side-by-side shots up at some point.

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#21

I agree, CRTs have a certain magic to them that’s really hard to pinpoint/explain. They just look better, and pictures can’t really capture it. The image is alive, sharp and smooth at the same time.

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#22

Without a doubt, this is the best display for 240p content that I’ve ever owned. I’ve come to the conclusion that there are several aspects of the CRT that shaders on an LCD are incapable of replicating: the way the phosphors emit light, the flicker, the true blacks, the complete lack of motion blur, the viewing angles. This easily beats every LCD and CRT TV that I’ve ever owned. The only thing that comes close is my plasma TV with emulated scanlines, but even that doesn’t have quite the same glow as the CRT.

The screen size (17") is quite a bit smaller than the 24" LCD display I was using, but that’s actually ideal for 240p content, since 240p content looks better with a smaller viewing angle than the viewing angles for 1080p or even regular standard def content. Eventually, I’d like to also get a 21" PC VGA CRT with a lower dot pitch.

Anyone serious about 240p gaming seriously owes it to themselves to get a decent CRT. Search on Craigslist, search on Letgo. Put a wanted ad up. Call some thrift stores. Call your local electronics recycling facility and ask if you can take one of their CRTs. If they say no, sneak in at night and just take one (just kidding, don’t do anything illegal). Just do whatever it takes.

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B2B968E5-31D7-4EE2-B25B-1365B9C0500C.jpeg4032×3024 2.71 MB

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#23

Agreed. As much as I love CRT shaders, I have a room full of different CRT displays because there are aspects of them that current flat-panel displays just can’t reproduce.

15 khz, 31 khz, multisync, RGB, Svideo, composite, aperture grille, slot mask, shadow mask, high/low dot-pitch, high/low line-counts… each one brings something unique to the table.

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#24

sorry for the necropost here.

i’m wondering if someone can confirm for me that 15kHz 240p isn’t possible with an Intel IGPU PC? i asked around and was told I need crt emudriver for 15kHz and it won’t work without an ATI/AMD card.

#25

You can’t get 240p on an Intel integrated graphics card and you don’t need crt emu driver. Custom Resolution Utility will also work.

As an alternative to 240p, you can use a 480p resolution and the interlacing shader; it’s basically identical.

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#26

It may work on Intel, but there are few reports confirming it, and I’ve never seen anything regarding any possible differences between the different Intel GPUs.

That’s just for Windows though. From what Alphanu has written, it should work on Linux with CRT Switchres.

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#27

Interesting. I’m more interested in the linux option. Is this via a Lakka install, or is it retroarch loaded on Ubuntu or some other Linux variant?

Thanks

#28

@vol-2 CRTSwitchRes is built into Lakka for the Raspberry PI. However, it is not for PC version. This is because KMS is not supported. You need to use any distro with an xserver/x11 video driver. I would suggest Lubuntu or any Distro that comes with OpenBox. Open box does require a lot of setup though.

You can use my setup script from RetroArch CrtSwitchRes 15khz auto setup script.

You could always try my ISO. It has the setup scripts built in. Just install, run the scripts then plug in your CRT. You can find it here at my forum along with some CRTSwitchRs/MME4CRT knowledge base and support.

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#29

Awesome. Thanks for the info and all your work!

I installed your iso, but I haven’t done the scripts. Are the scripts run with the “install 15khz” option in the menu?

#30

Yes indeed, unless you want 31khz.

#31

Hi Alphanu. Thanks for the direction here. I got an installation of you MME4CRT up on an intel based laptop. I can get into Retroarch, but it’s not giving me any 240p resolutions. Even if I am playing a sega genesis game which should be ~240p, it displays interlaced output at a super resolution of 2560. I have the CRT switchres set to 15kHz, and I ran the script in the games folder to enable 15kHz. (which I also have to run everytime I restart the laptop, it doesn’t remember the settings) I have the video set to aspect ratio= core provided. integer scaling=on (with integer scale=off, it is vertically squished) It seems like maybe there is a forces 320x480 base resolution or something like that. I’m not sure where to troubleshoot at this point. An xrandr doesn’t list a 2560x240 or any such resolution with *x240 for the VGA output VGA-1) Any ideas?

Thanks

#32

Intel integrated graphics won’t support 240p. Had the exact same issue with an Intel NUC system. 480p is the lowest you can go. Interlacing shader is going to be your best option.

#33

interesting. even with a super resolution? i know nvidia cards can do super resolution but not 320240. it looks like the intel chipset is giving me 1400480 when i use the mme4crt 15khz installation script, but when i turn on crtswitchres, it displays as 2560*480i. weird stuff.

#34

@Nesguy I have got 240p working with Intel. However, I sure it is dependent on you card. Linux is much more comparable though.

@vol-2 If i remember correctly 1920 or dynamic dynamic only works with Linux. Is the best to use with Intel cards.

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#35

Hi Alphanu I’m just trying to understand something about rasp-pi and the CRTSwitchRes. So it’s built into Lakka now, but on witch output? is it via the RCA jack or the HDMI or do i need to use a vga666?, and also do i just set it to native or super rez?.

thank you for the hard work.