Make a 31khz monitor look as close as possible like a consumer tv

I think trying to get a 31khz CRT to look like a 15 khz CRT using shaders is difficult for a variety of reasons. The mask effects won’t look quite right due to the CRT’s own mask, and you run into resolution problems when trying to vary the scanline width with shaders. You need 5x scale at a minimum to vary the beam width, or 1120 vertical resolution, which a lot of CRTs will struggle with. Thankfully, the interlacing shader at 480p produces some very nice beam width variation.

I think a 31 khz picture can look perfect if you just soften it up a bit with shaders and/or adjust the display’s sharpness. After experiencing “240p” on such a display, I can’t really see myself going back to 15 khz. I might still take an FD Wega, because the digital comb filter on those sets was amazing.

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But when you have a very severe ocd, and it decides that it likes the 15khz picture, you really couldn’t help it. I spent many nights and hours for nothing. I read that wii consoles are good at emulation and could do 240p. Thats my next target now. There are many games i missed or couldn’t finish in the past i want to play them now, and most importantly, play them how they are meant to be played.i dont want to ruin the experience on lcd or 31khz.

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Yeah, Wiis are great for that. RPi with the 240p composite-out firmware or retrotink analog output hat is another good option.

I can agree that personal preference is a thing, and can definitely relate to the whole OCD thing when it comes to display quality, but the argument starts to get somewhat shaky when you start talking about “artist’s intentions” and “how it was meant to be played.” There are just too many conflicting examples to ever pinpoint an exact standard for this stuff. The SNES Toys R Us display unit, for example, used a 14" Hi-res RGB monitor, which would have been much sharper than the typical TVs of the time. Pixel artists worked on RGB monitors, and sometimes had a second monitor using a composite connection, but we don’t know how widespread a practice this was.

It’s not “ruining the experience” to display these games on a 31 khz CRT. IMO, it’s glorious. If anything, the bolder scanlines give the image greater depth and make the highlights pop out even more, as well as making the image appear smoother and higher-def by breaking the pixels up into smaller units. I agree that emulation on an LCD sans shaders breaks the pixel art, but a 31 khz CRT is a totally legitimate way to display pixel art. It’s just not for everyone.

I have some experience using a Wii for 240p output to a CRT TV and I agree that it’s a good option if you’re trying to output to a 15 khz TV. If you’re going this route, it’s definitely worth it to get the component cable! I’m not sure what the input latency is like compared to other platforms, or how it compares to the RPI, though.

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Well you might be right, a 31khz crt doesnt really ruin the experience as much as a lcd does, but i believe, at least for me, as i grew up playing nes, snes and genesis on 80’s 90’s consumer crts, and have had all those great memories printed in my brain, me and my older brothers playing mk, dk, mario, streets of rage, double dragon and many great games… Here comes nostalgia, all i want is to replicate those good old times , even on the crt tv im using atm, games don’t really look how i remember them but at least close, in my memory those old tvs had a lot of bloom, soft picture, and games looked like hand drawn and smooth. This is where a 31khz doesn’t seem like an option, i know its a true 240p, but those scanlines don’t look good on games like dk and killer instinct. The 31khz option might be good for a new comer who never got the chance to witness 240p on a consumer crt , its still a lot better than a flat panel.

In the end, each has a different taste, and there is no definitive best way, personally i liked nes and atari games better on the 31khz crt. And nostalgia is a huge factor too, i would play on the real consoles if i had every game i wanted to play. On emulators i try to avoid that urge to use save states to get through difficult levels, in some games like rtype series, no way to beat these games with the given 3 or so lives unless one has mastered all levels to a certain degree and that would consume a lot of time which is not available at my age, also the idea of having an endless games list on queue, i can’t help but rush through all of them .

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I also grew up playing these games on a regular consumer CRT (90s kid), but I happen to vastly prefer the image on a 31 khz CRT. I’m not really motivated by nostalgia, though. I just want the best possible picture quality that I can currently get.

This is yet another example of how widely opinions on this can differ; I happen to think that the older the system, the better 15 khz can look, while newer stuff in particular tends to look better on a 31 khz monitor. I think even NES can look pretty awesome on a 31 khz CRT, though.

I’m pretty much the same when it comes to playing the games. Using save states invalidates the play through for me. On difficult games like shmups, I’ll sometimes use save states to practice a particularly difficult part, but then I’ll start from the beginning when I’m trying to actually beat the game.

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I take both factors (IQ and nostalgia) into consideration, and try to to go for a look that balances them out. And well, I have to say that the 31khz+guest/venom shots you provided (the first set) look great, much much better than the tv and also better that what you posted later. With that said, PAL sucks for gaming. Incorrect aspect ratios (our standard had higher resolution), slow audio and video + input lag (50hz vs 60hz)… the only advantage we had in Europe back then was the rgb-capable scart connector.

I wonder, @Claudespeed, what do you see (or don’t see) in an image like this that doesn’t satisfy your OCD’s needs?

retroarch%202019-03-23%2020-39-35_crop

First, i would like to say, the metal slug screenshots don’t look any close to the real thing, my brother has the metal slug x arcade cabinet and it’s not like that.

Second, each has a different taste, what looks good to you doesn’t necessarily mean it would look good to me,i really can’t undersrand how do you find that blocky look appealing. But i agree with you that pal is inferiour to ntsc.

About the ocd thing, it’s really hard to explain, and it’s highly unlikely you will understand how it feels when you don’t have it, many people get it wrong and think it’s cool, they go bragging amd claiming they have ocd when actually its not. It’s really a devastating, tiring, and overwhelming feelings, it even controls you to do things you don’t want to do. It might not sound logic to someone who doesn’t have it, its a combination of uncomfortable feelings and irresistable urges to do or arrange things in a very specific way, its worse than that feeling when you ignore an itch it makes you go crazy if you don’t act or say things in a certain way. If you resist what your ocd wants , it gets worse and you won’t feel fine till you get that result, see its really hard to explain, its a mental illness, some people have it worse, and it happens i have a bad condition. Believe me, sometimes when im trying to sleep and my ocd kicks in, i wont get sleep without pills that night till i satisfy it. Sometimes the urges are harmful… as i told you there are many branches and types of urges and feelings, if you feel like you want to learn more, google and youtube are your friends.

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Oh I didn’t mean to challenge your OCD, sorry if my question came off like an inquiry. I actually am quite obsessive myself too. I’m just trying to understand what you didn’t like about your own shots, the guest+31khz monitor ones, which look similar to the mslug image that I posted. I really like that look (and it is in fact more on the ‘quite soft’ side of crt simulations than on the blocky one).

I know it’s not easy to put into words, if it doesn’t feel right it doesn’t feel right, but that’s precisely what we are trying to do here (to put these things into words, I mean).

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If it’s OCD, then there’s no real logical reasoning behind it. That, and you’re likely to never be satisfied, no matter what. There is something to be said for “good enough.”

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Squalo no need to be sorry, i just tried to explain what have in mind.

Nesguy, its not like there is no good enough for me, its just im very picky.

Thank you all, i got a wii and im very happy, i just need a square crt now, do you think thats more accurate than my triangle shaped crt ?

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you should definitely get a CRT with a component YPbPr connection, and the official Nintendo component cable, so that you can actually get 240p out of the Wii.

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Composite will do just fine for 240p. I thought it was the opposite, and that 240p didn’t work with component.

Uh, yeah I guess you’re right. For some reason I was under the impression that you needed component to get 240p. Apparently it will work with either composite or component if you’re using Retroarch, but if you’re using the Wii VC 240p will only work via component.

Regardless, the image quality via component is vastly superior to composite, but you do you.

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The Wii should be able to output 240p over every connection, but what output is available depends on the region of the console. NTSC lacks Scart RGB output, PAL S-Video. The major downsides for me are lack of performance and emulator availability compared to a PC. It’s mostly fine up to 16bit consoles and some arcade games. The standalone computer emulators mostly were ported via SDL, no 240p with those.

Is there even a solution for PCs to get 240p via composite or S-Video? It’s a bit odd this should work with Wiis and there’s a solution for Raspberry Pis, but I never heard of anything for PCs.

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Hello again everyone.
It’s been a long time, i hope everyone is doing great.

I have a question hopefully someone who has multiple crt tvs could answer, as i said in a previous post, the LEXUS knock off local brand tv, looked better than a 2004~5 Flat glass sony trintron crt tv… the thing is that the sony did not have a natural looking image, now that i became aware and learned of new things, it turns out that the sony had VM On( over sharpening image processing that makes normal channels looked better) also , the default sharpness setting was set to 50( extremely sharp).

Now that i have set the sharpness to 24( less than that and it would start turning blurry, turned off vm( high low off) i got a good image out of it, better than the pc monitor, but still worse than the cheap crt.

The sony looks natural, but there is a special look in the cheaper tv image, looks all smooth and clean, feels like an oil painting.

Could someone explain this effect and which brand tvs could have this feel ?

Thanks and have a good day whoever’s reading this.

Can you provide some more info on the make/model of your CRTs? That will assist in looking up specs/features.

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sony kv-ar21m81

The other one, is Lexus called lexus and has a fake model number. I cannot find anything about it on google. It’s a basic tv, all the photos in the posts above are the of the Lexus.

Venom-fast with mask disabled on my CRT monitor.

Gtu v50, first two pass with composite enabled and signal resolution Y set to 128. Third pass is scanline-sine-abs.

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first one looks a bit sharp for a consumer TV, second looks about right I guess.