Rotation and shaders

Weirdly, i don’t like people spreading lies about me or my project.

Yet you are saying FBNeo is the one to blame for doing the rotation under the hood, while FBNeo is actually handling the rotation properly through the libretro api. If you want to file a bug, file it to the RetroArch repo. Note : i can’t find the issue you supposedly opened on FBNeo’s github.

This was a long time ago on a forum post that maybe 10 people have seen and it was a mistake. I never pointed you out by name and have since clarified my statement and edited the original post to make it clear that I was not referring to you. If you prefer, I’ll delete the offending post. Whatever you want man, honestly not trying to attack you or your work.

Yes, exactly. Why do you keep acting as if I was referring to you? Can we move on from this?

I’m saying that when you launch a vertical game in FBneo using RA it isn’t displayed correctly, that’s it. The rest is technical stuff that’s irrelevant to the user. I don’t know what is correct or incorrect as far as the code is concerned. I only know that FBNeo in RA isn’t displaying vertical games correctly, by default.

Thanks, I’ll do that.

New acct, new pw… I’m too lazy to hunt it down right now but if you saw the thread with grant2258 that’s the one. I may have actually opened it on the RA repo, can’t remember.

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I mean in @Nesguy’s defense about blaming it on the FBNeo core, everyone beats us over the head with how MAME is supposed to be so accurate and everything, and then in RetroArch the MAME core behaves one way with vertical games and the FBNeo core reacts to vertical games in a different manner what would you think is happening?

I sure as shit wouldn’t think MAME is behaving weird tbh.

I’m not going to say your wrong about anything else you said, but he wasn’t trying to be malicious in his actions, he brought up an issue, was attacked verbally by a person he thought to be part of the FBNeo core team (which again in his defense I wouldn’t assume random people unrelated to the code would come to argue with me about the code, where people submit the code ya know?), and afterwards he’s just been venting his frustration about the overall matter and what as far as he knew was accurate information. (I would’ve done similar stuff in his position)

Tbh, it’s just a bunch of misunderstandings.

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There is no such issue, vertical FBNeo games are properly displayed using default RetroArch settings. Again, could you please stop spouting lies ? The fact you aren’t really apologizing for your previous mistakes and prefer brushing this off as “not my fault and this is old anyway” is already unnerving enough.

Some in-depth explanations :

RetroArch requests this from cores :

  • the framebuffer
  • the rotation index (0/90/180/270)
  • the viewport aspect ratio
  • the viewport width/height

The viewport is how the game will be viewable on the user’s screen, including rotation, upscaling, or whatever else. Meaning when you play a vertical game in FBNeo, FBNeo will send the unrotated framebuffer with the rotation index we expect RetroArch to apply, and the rotated aspect ratio & resolution because this is what RetroArch is asking. Tbh, this is stupid, cores should send the unrotated dimensions, and RetroArch should be the one rotating those values afterward, but again i’m just doing this by RetroArch’s book, and there is no easy way to change this at this point since it would cause all kinds of retrocompatibility issues.

So the thing is, while everything ends up being displayed fine with RetroArch default settings (unlike what you said), i’m aware RetroArch starts messing up when the user wants to force another rotation index (which i believe is what you are trying to do ?), because RetroArch stops applying core’s rotation index but keep the core’s viewport dimensions as-is (and never tell the core that rotation changed, so the core can’t send new dimensions), that’s why i implemented that “vertical mode” core option workaround for the user’s convenience, that way the core is fully aware of what the user wants and can send matching rotation+dimensions.

RA should probably auto-swap height/width when verticality of rotation index sent by the core and verticality of rotation index set by the user are mismatching, that’s the only way i can think to fix this without retrocompatibility issues at this point.

2 misunderstandings :

  • MAME isn’t more accurate than FBNeo, it’s more of a per-game comparison where most games will be equally accurate, and a few will be more accurate in one emulator or the other
  • The porting to libretro has nothing to do with accuracy, and MAME’s porting to libretro is very shallow. Unlike FBNeo which is an in-depth libretro port that is doing everything in a “libretro way” and is compatible with pretty much every libretro features.
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See the lovely thing about english, is I didn’t say that MAME was more accurate than FBNeo.

I said per verbatim "…everyone beats us over the head with how MAME is supposed to be so accurate and everything…’’

See important words/phrases in that sentence are everyone beats us over the head with and supposed to. (Basically I’m saying that this has been user gospel for many moons, not an individual’s/factual information, hence the use of the words everyone and supposed)

I’m saying I’ve legitimately never heard anyone ever say FBNeo is the the same kind of accurate as MAME, granted I just talk to users, and again I’m not saying you’re wrong with information (I mean fuck you’re working on it, you know what’s going on with it more than I do.)

As much as it seems like I’m arguing, I am taking this information you’re telling me as the correct information. (I’m just trying to add another viewpoint to the discussion as someone not related to situation, even if it may seem like I’m against you)

I don’t have anything more to contribute atm so I’m going to peace out.

@BarbuDreadMon

I admitted that it was a case of mistaken identity, edited my original post to reflect that and offered to delete it. What is going to make you happy, here? There was no malice or ill intent toward you.

You keep insisting that it’s technically correct, code-wise, and I’m not disputing that. I’m saying this is irrelevant to the end user who sees only that vertical games swap width/height and are rotated by default. Vertical games should display sideways by default; that’s what you get with the pcb connected to a CRT monitor. Anything done to the image rotation-wise should be user-controlled and not applied automatically.

That’s all fine and good, and it may be that what we have is as good as it’s going to get.

except I’m not doing that, I’m using defaults.

FBNeo default settings, 3x scale

This is correct:

except that most people don’t want to deal with manually rotating their games

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Automatic rotation causes its own problems for people using CRTs or those with rotatable displays.

The solution IMO is to just make this transparent: a toggle switch in the RA video settings “automatically rotate vertical games.” This could be left on by default. Problem solved. Now CRT/rotatable display users don’t have to manually toggle “vertical mode” in FBNeo, load a different system, then reload the game every time a vertical game is loaded, which is very cumbersome. Normal default behavior remains unchanged.

That’s pretty much the situation right now, I think:

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Is this new since 1.9.2? I’m not seeing that.

I don’t think so, but maybe. It should be in settings > core, and it’s an advanced setting. It might have changed names at some point, though, too.

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Ahhh damn it, there it is. That solves the problem as far as I’m concerned. I suppose it’s debatable whether it should go there or in video settings.

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Maybe try sounding apologetic instead of talking nonsense about FBNeo ? Because you never stopped…

So that’s what it was about… I’m totally baffled by this statement that vertical games should be displayed sideways by default. It reminds me so much of my first contact with grant2258, when he argued we should make default mapping convenient for the barcade users and screw the others, you 2 are so much alike. I guess you don’t understand either the concept of making the default more convenient for the standard users than for the 1% of users with non-standard setups (crt, rotated screen, barcade, …).

Furthermore, MAME is also displaying vertical games in a vertical way by default (you need to enable MAME’s TATE mode if you want vertical games to be displayed sideways, or to apply rotation in RA settings, none of those are the default…), except in a way that prevents shader from ever being displayed correctly on vertical games, so i still don’t understand the whole defamation streak about MAME doing things right and FBNeo doing things wrong.

Yeah, except that setting doesn’t solve the dimension issue i was mentioning above, so the best way to get around this with FBNeo for now would still be to use the “vertical mode” core option i added a few years back.

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Honestly you just sound like someone who is looking for a fight, I’m so done with this petty internet finger pointing bullshit. It’s entirely driven by your ego and nothing else.

There was never any ill intent or malice toward you. Apologies are only called for when there is ill intent or tangible harm resulting from a mistake, neither of which is the case here. No one should be made to feel guilty for mistakes where there is no harm done and therefore there’s no obligation for me to apologize here.

But if it’ll make you feel better: I’m sorry. There. Feel better? I doubt it.

Some people live their entire lives on the internet and take this shit far too seriously.

If there’s no tangible harm then there’s no defamation, so you can drop that bit already. Accusing someone of defamation where there’s no tangible harm is actually harassment.

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Because the masses are willing to settle for a shitty/inaccurate product, quality should be adjusted accordingly? We should always cater to the lowest common denominator? Got it.

I’m more concerned with accurate preservation, some are more of the school of thought that “accuracy be damned, give the masses what they want.” No one is right here, so the solution is to be transparent about whatever changes you’re making to the correct, unaltered image. RA kiiiinda does this, but putting the relevant option in core settings is a bit counter-intuitive IMO, although I understand the reason for it.

Final Burn Neo (FBN/FBNeo) is the follow-up of Final Burn Alpha (FBA/FBAlpha), an alternative to MAME for arcade emulation. It’s more focused on playability than on accuracy/preservation.

(https://www.libretro.com/index.php/author/barbudreadmon/)

Well, there you go.

My intention here is not to knock FBNeo or you, but we could have saved ourselves an argument had you just admitted that FBNeo is focused on playability from the get-go rather than digging your heels in and insisting that a rotated image is somehow “accurate” when clearly it’s not. I think we’ve said all that needs to be said about this.

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Alright, I think we can call this settled for now.

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Absolutely no standalone emulators or libretro cores handling vertical games are displaying them sideways by default afaik, super accurate MAME emulator included, so you have yet to post a single valid argument about what FBNeo specifically is doing wrong here. This is getting nowhere and you become more and more insulting (masses ? shitty/inaccurate product ?), so i’ll close.