CyberLab Death To Pixels Shader Preset Packs

[flunkhaus]

@Cyber - OK I’m back with another question. You had said that you would like to see a few screenshots and how you don’t get much visual feedback from users.

I wanted to show you how I have it all setup now and how it’s looking really good to me, and see how it looks to you.

But I have no idea how to get actual screenshots showing HDR on here. The .JXR files from the screenshots taken are way too big to post, like 25-30 MB. I can just change them to JPG and they keep the HDR brightness but they are still the same size. Compressing them converts them to JPG and brings the file size down to 2.5-3ish MB, but they lose all the brightness.

[Cyber]

@flunkhaus

You had said that you would like to see a few screenshots

Did I say screenshots? If I did, I meant photos of the screen. Screenshots aren’t going to show the impact the display’s subpixel layout and brightness has on the preset and that’s the type of feedback I’m interested in.

On another note. You can convert *.jxr to *.jpg using IrFanView. Also using IrFanView you can set a custom size limit for *.jpg files and it will adjust the compression/quality settings to fit within that limit.

If you want to post full *.jxr files, you can use a cloud storage and sharing service but I repeat, *.jxr files will only show me what I already know about the presets so I’m not really interested in those.

[flunkhaus]

How does something like this look? I’m no photographer and I’m sure there’s all sorts of settings I could use to get better photos of a screen, it’s definitely hard to get it just right, and I had to compress this from my original photo as that was still a little too big.

For this one I’m using one of the Legendary presets, this specific one is from the Experimental folder, but I’ve been going back and forth on this one and the regular Super Smooth one:

CyberLab Guest 4K HDR Game BFI SNES Composite CyberTron Super Smooth Advanced S.slangp

[Cyber]

It looks really good to me! Feel free to take some close up shots as well. Have you began experimenting with BFI/CRT-Beam-Simulator/Shader Beam yet?

I posted some tests which we (the community) can use to evaluate different display types’ performance using subpixel aware CRT Shaders. Feel free to give them a go if you have the time. There are many tips on taking photos of CRT shaders on the screen which also work for taking photos of a real CRT screen!

I actually shared this with you a few posts ago.

OLED subpixels. How do they work?

Sure! To keep things nice and tidy, we can post the results and further discussion here: These tests require the SNES 240p Test Suite available here: https://artemiourbina.itch.io/240p-test-suite and CyberLab Megatron miniLED Death To Pixels 4K HDR Shader Prest Pack available here: Instructions: Load the 240p Test Suite, load one of the CyberLab Subpixel Layout Test presets, then take a few close/macro photos of some grey or white areas of the screen showing the individual red, green and…

[flunkhaus]

I took a look at the BFI options in Retroarch but when I tried turning it on it said it disabled the hardcore retroachievements which I tend to like to try for (makes me try some of these older games without things like Save States) so I just let it go for now, I’m definitely interested in learning more at some point. I feel like I’ve just learned a whole lot about shaders in general and how they work with this new monitor and I’m going to just try to actually play some games for a while without falling down even more rabbit holes!

Thank you again for all your help and advice. I’m a child of the 80s, and the early-mid 90s was where I really fell into PC and console gaming, so it’s been a lot of fun trying to do things to reproduce what screens were like back then. I’d actually love to go hunt down some actual CRT monitors and TVs but my wife would probably kill me.

[Cyber]

No problem. Shader Beam is independent of RetroArch so it might work with RetroAchievements if you eventually decide to try it. Enjoy it and spread the word to others.

By the way, what HDR Brightness/Peak Luminance/Paper White Luminance settings have you settled on?

Blur Busters CRT Beam Simulator Shader - RetroArch Configuration Guide

ShaderBeam is Out! ShaderGlass Dev NAILS CRT Emulation

Shader Beam Brings True CRT Motion Clarity to Modern Displays

CRT Beam Simulator Vs BFI @ 120Hz

Black Frame Insertion and CRT Beam, Explained

[Cyber]

@PU786

Mask 13 size 1, Mask 6 size 2, and Mask 0 size 3 are all 300TVL, correct?..sometimes my brain just gets a little frazzled these days. :x

Guess I’ve outgrown 600TVL finally without realizing it and it’s 150TVL that looks bad to me. lol Which of course right? I was thinking Mask 0 Size 4 and forgot it’s for 8K. (6k?)

Okay let’s do this:

Television lines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPvfToo4scQ&t=77s

To calculate the TVL of a subpixel aware CRT Shader we take the number of vertical pixels of the display then divide it by the number of subpixels in the CRT Shader Mask Layout.

So for Mask 12 RRGGBBX @4K that would be 2160/7 = ~308TVL
for Mask 10 RGBX @4K that would be 2160/4 = 540TVL
for Mask 6 RGB @4K that would be 2160/7 = 720TVL
for Mask 6, Size 2 RRGGBB @4K that would be 2160/7 = 360TVL

for Mask 10 RGBX @1440p that would be 1440/4 = 360TVL
for Mask 6 RGB @1440p that would be 1440/3 = 480TVL

for Mask 6 RGB @1080p that would be 1080/3 = 360TVL

New CRT shader from Guest + CRT Guest Advanced updates

It looks great on a big screen TV from a relatively far viewing distance though. Although if comparing phosphors vs pixels on many CRT displays including arcade displays the phosphors might not align as well with the edges of the pixels on many graphical elements compared to a slightly higher TVL mask. Just to add to what @guest.r and @yuzqailo posted:

Is this correct @Guest.R, @HunterK, @Nesguy, @GPDP1?

[PU786]

So basically, my CRT was the XBR960, similar to Mask 0, 1080 TVL - so that’s where I set stuff up initially for my 480p shaders so the TV --> CRT shader would seem right. This is so different from everyone else who were using SDTV’s instead so my eyes weren’t used to things yet.

Then I re-did my Presets and got used to playing at 720 TVL with Mask 6, 240p.

Then I re-did my presets with Mask 11 at 540 TVL - the X in RGBX for mask 10 bugged me when looking at solid color backgrounds.

I think when I started experimenting with CRT Yah that’s when I wound up finally adjusting to 308 TVL - and found Mask 13 matched that. The X in CRT-Yah’s MGX mask bugged me so prevented me from using its 540 TVL setup.

I certainly knew what 300TVL meant when we were talking in the Megatron thread. But I got myself confused in the last month or so as I took that break. #52soon

[hunterk]

Yeah, TVL is supposed to be a measure of how many distinct white and black vertical lines can be packed into a width that’s equal to the display’s height, and it’s used to measure the focus and precision of the electron beam. So, not exactly related to mask size, but sort of.

There’s a bunch of back and forth about it in this thread at the shmups forum: https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67124

Apparently, TVL is usually bottlenecked by the electron beam’s dot size, which is typically 2x the size of a phosphor triad. We don’t really have that limitation in shaders, so just calculating the number of triads is a reasonable simplification, but it’s not exactly comparable to CRT spec docs, I don’t suppose.

[Cyber]

@PU786

the X in RGBX for mask 10 bugged me when looking at solid color backgrounds.

@PU786

The X in CRT-Yah’s MGX mask bugged me so prevented me from using its 540 TVL setup.

How do you know that it’s the X that’s the problem when you can’t even tell (or at least tell us) if the CRT Shader Masks and Phosphors are properly aligned with the display’s subpixels?

Suppose if things are correctly lined up the spacing is less pronounced or at least is even/proportional? Do you know that the white subpixel in your BWRG WOLED display skews the subpixel spacing making a wider gap between the subpixels adjacent to the White subpixel compared to LCD subpixels? Imagine if this gap was next to the X (dark subpixel) gap that is drawn by the subpixel shader?

Also this hate for the X, do you know that a real CRT’s phosphors are separated by black mask material? If we remove the X then there would essentially be no Shadow Mask/Aperture Grille. How do you think that bodes for accuracy?

[PU786]

It’s not really a hate for it, it just doesn’t look right to me. I also test via SDR on my laptop. I mean unless masks are purely there for HDR implementation, am I missing that? :o

Without the X, it’s Mask 6. Which I believe both exist fur good reason.

[Cyber]

@PU786

It’s not really a hate for it

I didn’t mean it literally.

@PU786

it just doesn’t look right to me.

That’s fine.

@PU786

I also test via SDR on my laptop.

Okay.

@PU786

I mean unless masks are purely there for HDR implementation, am I missing that? :o

Do I detect sarcasm?

@PU786

Without the X, it’s Mask 6. Which I believe both exist fur good reason.

I can think of one good reason. RGB is the only Mask Layout that would provide true 1:1 RGB Subpixels:Phosphors @ 1080p. If we tried to draw the black mask line we’d end up with RGBX which is 1080/4 = 270TVL. Very low and chunky with a lot of black on the screen.

Another good reason is that it can provide more variety at higher resolutions albeit at the cost of structural complexity due to a lack of resolution to proper draw and define all aspects of the CRT’s Mask and phosphor structure verbatim.

So don’t get me wrong, I understand that you’re used to the high TVL stuff and I’m not trying to convince you to like what you don’t like, I’m just discussing the merits of something in case you were wondering or just curious.

These are some examples of how bad things can look on WOLED when the subpixel alignment is wrong:

OLED subpixels. How do they work?

Here are some macro shots of Wii Sports running on an LG 55OLEDE6P using CyberLab Mega Bezel Death To Pixels Shader Preset Pack. The first ones are using CyberLab Wii, which uses Mask 6 at size 2, while the others use Mask 7 and 8 at different sizes. The last set uses Mask 6 size 2 with aperture grille layout followed by Mask 7 and 8 at various sizes. This could be the final verdict on the accuracy and capability of WOLED TVs to depict RGB phosphor triad emulation properly. So far it doesn’t…

OLED subpixels. How do they work?

This is how bad things can look when the subpixel layouts in the CRT Shader and the Display don’t align:

This is an example of how good things can look on WOLED when the subpixel alignment is as good as possible.

Sony Megatron Colour Video Monitor

The subpixels only matter as long as they’re visible to the eye, which is a function of viewing distance, pixel density and visual acuity (within reason; videophilia/audiophilia “golden” body parts notwithstanding). Beyond that threshold, we just draw the mask in whole pixels and move on. Based on Trogglemonkey’s calculations, we should be able to do that at around 6K res for non-weird CRTs (i.e., very high pitch). Based on Apple’s “retina” display designations, it looks like a PPI between 200 …

Note how much black is around both the CRT’s phosphors and the OLED’s subpixels. This is using RRBBGGX Mask Layout (or whatever secret variant of it Guest.R uses because Nesguy recently said he felt it was XRRBBGG).

You can see here for further recent discussions on the matter:

A new little shader i did (glsl)

A note about masks and why they are mostly inaccurate on most shaders at 1080p (the reason they feel “weird”, you can feel something is wrong). [image] The gap between the triad of pixels is around the same size of one R/G/B strip, in reality it’s around 20% of the total pixel size. Long story short, in order to be accurate the gap should be minimum 1 pixel and 3 pixels should be used for RGB stripes on every screen, that makes 270 TVL accurate pixels possible on a 1080p, 360 TVL on 1440p an…

[PU786]

@Cyber

Do I detect sarcasm?

No no. Was genuinely starting to wonder it as I typed. Especially after the last day with these.

Wow! I actually remember when that Devon guy posted those screenshots. Forgot all about that because I was worked on that Plasma TV Kuro setup for a year! (9 years when it came to movies)

[Cyber]

@Cyber

RGB is the only Mask Layout that would provide true 1:1 RGB Subpixels:Phosphors @ 1080p. If we tried to draw the black mask line we’d end up with RGBX which is 1080/4 = 270TVL. Very low and chunky with a lot of black on the screen.

This may not actually be entirely correct. 2 pixel masks are there for a reason and the science is solid on them and they do actually work. The post I shared has a good breakdown of how a Green-Magenta Mask would be rendered on a 1080p RGB display. The spacing between the individual subpixels would be even as the mask layout would be exploiting the black gap provided by the switched off subpixels across 2 adjacent pixels.

[PU786]

You must be 20x as frustrated as I am about OLED subpixel structure. I tried commenting about it on one of Vincent’s YouTube videos (HDTVtest) and the Comment Monsters lit me up for daring to mention it in terms of CRT Shaders!

[Cyber]

@PU786

You must be 20x as frustrated as I am about OLED subpixel structure.

Not really, just realizing that very few seem to understand or care about this stuff but it is important from a preservation and accuracy perspective. I guess some people are still so blinded by the novelty of true blacks and better viewing angles, the lack of blooming and the idea of super fast pixel response times providing better input lag and better motion clarity that they miss certain other important pillars of accurate CRT emulation.

At least my contribution to these things is well documented. However, I came up with the concept of the using a fast moving rolling scanline instead of BFI to improve motion clarity and I asked HunterK if he could make a shader to do just that and he did and I tested it out on my 60Hz LG OLED E6P and it didn’t get around the refresh rate limitation and seem to improve motion clarity much and was a strobing mess because the beam (rolling scanline) couldn’t run faster than the content refresh rate and even if it could my display was still limited to 60Hz.

Then came SubFrame support.

Then came odd cadence BFI to prevent Image retention in LCDs.

Then came CRT-Beam-Simulator with no mention of CyberLab’s early concept and HunterK’s proof of that concept and I can’t find that shader code nor that conversation I had with HunterK which led to it.

I can’t remember if it was via DM on these forums or in a thread here or over on Reddit. At least there’s one person with can vouch for me.

I’m more upset with myself that I can’t find my receipts for that than what’s going on in the world of OLED.

[guest.r]

Dunno, but folks can always try to adjust the TVL with the Mask Zoom parameter. Personally i got used to it and i also don’t like to sharp edges on phosphors with very low TVL. Mask Zoom sharpen is also a handy functionality, especially with 4k displays.

[flunkhaus]

@Cyber

By the way, what HDR Brightness/Peak Luminance/Paper White Luminance settings have you settled on?

I’m still playing around with it, and need to spend more time with that 240p test suite, but for the Legendary presets I’ve set Retroarch to 2500. Similar for the miniLED but I haven’t spent as much time looking at them.

This thing that stands out the most to me is the map screen for LTTP starts to look a bit off to me higher than 2500, I think that’s where I start to see some clipped whites/highlights as there starts to be this kind of whitish haze over the screen.

I’ll need to keep playing with it a bit. I feel like I need to spend a little more time dialing in the settings and I’ll try to get some pictures when I think I have it how I like it to show you how it’s looking.

And I’m definitely interested in looking into Shader Beam, I’ve spent a lot of time with his ShaderGlass tool.

[Cyber]

@flunkhaus

This thing that stands out the most to me is the map screen for LTTP starts to look a bit off to me higher than 2500, I think that’s where I start to see some clipped whites/highlights as there starts to be this kind of whitish haze over the screen.

Remember the numbers don’t tell you when you’re hitting the limits of the capabilities of your display, only your eyes will.

Also, Paper White Luminance has a much more significant effect on overall brightness than Peak Luminance in the older Sony Megatron presets. Peak mainly affects the brightest of the bright and the whitest of the white, so don’t hesitate to increase your Paper Whilte Luminance to as high as it takes for the image to be as bright as it needs to be within the observed limits of your display.

[flunkhaus]

Yeah when using the Sony Megatron based shaders I’ve just set the Peak Luminance to what my monitor is, it doesn’t really seem to do much of anything, and the Paper White Luminance I set similar to what I have the Retroarch HDR brightness at, and I get similar results to the guest based shaders. I just really like the one I’m using from your Legendary pack so I’m mostly sticking with that for now.