Tweak handheld TV output. (I don't think anyone would do it)

[Ranmori]

If you want to output the handheld to a TV (CRT shader specification), I will share information that will make it look better.

The first premise is to use ”\shaders_slang\misc\grade.slangp", but this may be a matter of preference.

• GB. The SGB color palette seems suitable. For monochrome without SGB support, the color palette is a matter of preference.

• GBC/GBA. Display like GBP, lower brightness to 0.79. reference Real GBA and DS-Phat colors However, I feel like it would look good on NSO-GBC or NSO-GBA as well. Currently I’m using NSO-GBC and NSO-GBA.

• PSP. Since it is D-Video/Component, I think it is probably the same output signal as PS1/PS2. Therefore, I don’t think you need to do anything special with the PSP.

Now on to the main topic, What about Neo Geo Pocket/Color and WonderSwan/Color? That’s the main topic here.

Normally, even for handhelds, games are developed by displaying them on a TV or CRT. Therefore, I was researching with the idea that there was a development kit for Neo Geo Pocket and WonderSwan that outputs to a TV or CRT.

• NGP/NGPC, I found that the brightness was darker in the output from the NGPC development kit. The brightness seems to be lowered to 0.89. In fact, when I lowered it to 0.89, the strain on my eyes decreased.

• WS/WSC, from the screenshots and videos of the TV Swan kit, it looks like the brightness hasn’t been touched at all. This is a GBA with the GBA’s NSO-GBA shader applied and a WSC without any shader applied, and the colors are almost the same. Therefore, I think the correct answer is to do nothing with WS/WSC.

• GG. Since this is the same as SMS, I think there is no problem with the settings being the same as SMS. There is one person in Japan who modified GG and developed a console version.

Other handhelds were not sold in Japan unless they were imported from overseas, so I will omit them.

I’m glad if you can use it as a reference.
Now, are there any other people like me who are playing with a handheld device outputting to a TV with a CRT shader applied?

[alexb3d]

I’m confused, do you mean using a portable device with output to the TV, to emulate other portable devices and apply shaders? O_o

If that’s the case, I want to buy a Switch, I’m in love with that little console.

[Ranmori]

Even though I am writing this myself, I am very confused. It’s very difficult to understand.

To be more precise, it outputs to a CRT using a “portable device with AV output”. I wanted to say that it is reproduced with a CRT shader on today’s HDTV (LCD, EL, etc.).

However, NGP/NGPC and WS/WSC do not have AV output. I thought there must be a development kit, and after doing some research, I found out that it actually existed.

The NGPC development kit and WSC development kit (TV Swan) have AV output. So I investigated the screenshots and videos shown on the TV/CRT and wrote this conclusion.

ok…?
Hmm. English is difficult.

[Ranmori]

This is what happens when the brightness of NGPC is 0.89.

This screenshot also shows the NTSC-J settings in grade.slangp.

[alexb3d]

@Ranmori

Even though I am writing this myself, I am very confused. It’s very difficult to understand.

These things tend to happen. lol

I think I understand you…
You are trying to emulate the same tonality (brightness/contrast) on a modern TV as the old handheld consoles reproduced when connected to a CRT TV, right?

I’ll give you a tip, maybe it will help you.
I worked in audiovisual production and there was an unwritten standard for video output to NTSC (SD/DV). Black and White cannot be total.
Black value V8% (or RGB 20/255).
White value V92% (or RGB 235/255 ).
To prevent colors from bursting and vibrating on the screen.

This also applies to the consoles, but I have noticed that the textures and colors are total, they do not have this adjustment, so I think that the color correction was done by the console output itself.

I have seen some shaders that have Output Black, which is for this black setting.

If it wasn’t about this, ignore the spam.

もし翻訳機を使うなら、DeepLを使ってみてください。
日本語の翻訳にとても適しています。

[Ranmori]

@alexb3d

I think I understand you… You are trying to emulate the same tonality (brightness/contrast) on a modern TV as the old handheld consoles reproduced when connected to a CRT TV, right?

Yes, that is correct. The two core ones were NGP/NGPC and WS/WSC, which do not have AV output. This is what I was looking into.

@alexb3d

I’ll give you a tip, maybe it will help you. I worked in audiovisual production and there was an unwritten standard for video output to NTSC (SD/DV). Black and White cannot be total.

This also applies to the consoles, but I have noticed that the textures and colors are total, they do not have this adjustment, so I think that the color correction was done by the console output itself.

I have seen some shaders that have Output Black, which is for this black setting.

I used to work as a 3DCG and illustrator, and I had to figure out a problem similar to that. The problem was that white appeared to glow and black appeared to be “nothing” like a black hole.

So this applies to Emulator as well. I know there are both white level adjustment and black level adjustment shaders, but I am not sure if I should adjust that much. I spend too much time adjusting shaders rather than gameplay. lol

@alexb3d

もし翻訳機を使うなら、DeepLを使ってみてください。 日本語の翻訳にとても適しています。

Thank you for the guidance to Deepl Translate.

I have known about Deepl Translate for some time, but have been using Google Translate because of its ease of use. However, since Google Translate allows anyone to freely customize the translation results, the translated text often went wrong after translation.

I will switch to Deepl Translate from now on.
Finally, thank you very much for your native Japanese.

[alexb3d]

@Ranmori

which do not have AV output.

With a brief search I have seen some mod (bricolage) to remove the TV output, but it’s too complicated for me, I don’t know if you dare to do it.

@Ranmori

I used to work as a 3DCG and illustrator

How interesting, I’d like to see them. If you have done work for NTSC, you must be over 35 years old, or is it a special project for DVD. I have also done 3D and animation, also other things like architecture.

Yes, the output in those ‘old’ days was already an old problem. The dvcam solved it by itself, the problem started when digital graphics were introduced. I’m not that ‘old’ but I lived it in the digital era.

If you use HDR, I understand it has more brightness density. Maybe it takes more than V-92% (or 0.92 in the shader), that’s why you see it fine with 0.79. But in HD, it would look very dark, keep that in mind.

Thanks for my Japanese deepl-native.
DeepL also allows you to make and suggest corrections, but they are not automatic, it goes into revision. Yes you can create custom glossaries. But what I like the most is that the translations are logical.

If you get inconsistencies, it may be something like this.
after 、 。always leave space.
【】 or 「」 sometimes do not understand them and it is better to replace them with " " .

[Ranmori]

@alexb3d

How interesting, I’d like to see them. If you have done work for NTSC, you must be over 35 years old, or is it a special project for DVD. I have also done 3D and animation, also other things like architecture.

I am over 40 years old. I worked for an advertising agency. “examples in Japan are Dentsu and Hakuhodo”.

@alexb3d

Yes, the output in those ‘old’ days was already an old problem. The dvcam solved it by itself, the problem started when digital graphics were introduced. I’m not that ‘old’ but I lived it in the digital era.

Thanks for the varied advice. However, regarding black and white levels, I’m not sure this applies to projection on a home HDTV, it’s a SONY BRAVIA, and even in low latency game mode, the color correction by the BRAVIA engine is still in effect.

If the darkening during the game is completely black, the TV will be completely black. In the past when I tried not going full black at one time, it always looked like a floating gray, and I thought that if I were to use the BRAVIA, the best black level would be 0 and the white level would be 255.

The higher the white level, the more the BRAVIA will lower it on its own.

I am thinking that this black level and white level would probably apply to older CRTs from the 80s/90s/2000s. It is a feature called “Auto Color Correction”.

The black level and white level adjustments you mention would make sense to apply to so-called modern “gaming monitors”.

@alexb3d

If you use HDR, I understand it has more brightness density. Maybe it takes more than V-92% (or 0.92 in the shader), that’s why you see it fine with 0.79. But in HD, it would look very dark, keep that in mind.

Also, my BRAVIA has HDR, but I have HDR turned off, and the combination of GTX1080Ti and HDMI 2.0 seems to have transmission limitations on Windows and not fully RGB.

Maybe with a “gaming monitor” and a DP cable it would be different, but anyway I can’t use HDR. But the PS4Pro connected at the same time shows up fine, Perhaps Windows is the cause.

So I’m basically no-touch with HDR.

Also, I have a "light sensitivity allergy", so OLED(EL) is not for me because of the visible flicker.

I always suffered from flicker in the CRT days, and I switched to LCD TVs as soon as I could…

Therefore, reproducing CRT shaders on an HDTV with LCD is like playing with a flicker-free CRT, which is heaven right now.

[alexb3d]

My calculations are not wrong.

But, if your BRAVIA TV makes automatic correction even if it is in game mode, how can you be sure that this preset can work for someone else, who has a TV that does not make correction?

[Ranmori]

@alexb3d

how can you be sure that this preset can work for someone else, who has a TV that does not make correction?

This is not a certainty. It is a “probably so.” Not all Consumer CRTs have it.

In the days of Consumer CRTs, there were some Consumer CRTs that had such a function and others that did not.

If we are talking about today, “gaming monitors” and televisions that claim low latency…in Japan, “REGZA”, for example, do not have such a function. HDTVs that do not…are still “probably so”.

This could mean that this may not be the case, and I am not saying this with certainty.

[Ranmori]

The parts of Consumer CRT that I can think of that had automatic color correction features were things like removing color bleeding caused by RF or composite cleanly to make it S-Video-like, darkening whites on its own,
and a feature that for some reason adjusts colors on its own even though it is in game mode. ‘In this case, most users would have hated that.’

Just to add for the record, this is with Consumer CRT in NTSC-J.

The effect of the Pokemon shock in Japanese animation, or Dennō Senshi Porygon as it is called overseas, has caused the CRT side to adjust the brightness more on its own.

The first preset I posted is not absolute, as I meant to take the normal brightness as 1, introduce shaders that can change the brightness, and lower it from 1 to 0.79 or 0.89. It is relative.

It also means that if the TV has darker whites from the beginning, this preset will darken them even more.

[alexb3d]

Yes, I imagine it will be relative, each TV has its own settings, but if you get an approximate setting, it would be very useful to get better fidelity and perhaps the handheld type shader, can impementar them.

Actually I’ve always hated the automatic settings, I always turn them off, I have a bad habit of calibrating even the TVs.

The pokemon shock, I heard a lot about it back in the day, now I see it and I think, who came up with the brilliant idea of putting those color patterns? the art director didn’t notice? or the editor, who surely spent many hours in front of the monitor didn’t feel the dizziness?

P.S.:

@Ranmori

but I am not sure if I should adjust that much. I spend too much time adjusting shaders rather than gameplay. lol

This is the “RetroArch Shock” effect, many of us are suffering from this.

[Ranmori]

@alexb3d

Yes, I imagine it will be relative, each TV has its own settings, but if you get an approximate setting, it would be very useful to get better fidelity and perhaps the handheld type shader, can impementar them.

Regarding NGPC’s 0.89 I have verified it with the NEOGEO POCKET COLOR SELECTION on the Switch, compared it with the screenshot function, and also the RetroArch side with a screenshot with no shaders applied, and many other things.

Switch actually has slightly darker whites and appears to be closer to 0.89, so even though it is relative, I believe this is correct.

@alexb3d

or the editor, who surely spent many hours in front of the monitor didn’t feel the dizziness?

An easy cause to imagine, The NTSC-J standard is 9300K, but that is the color temperature when put on the airwaves and received by the respective hypothetical Consumer CRT.

At the time of production, it was usually produced at 6500K on a Professional CRT. However, Pokemon Shock did not check switching to 9300K. Furthermore, the Professional CRT is quite dark in brightness. I think the cause is this.

Another factor is that most of the people who got sick were children, and their vision was not well developed or developing, and their eyes were weaker than those of adults.

I think this is the same problem as the possibility of developing a disease called “strabismus” when children are given VR goggles to wear today.

As a side note, since this incident, an “anime mode” has been added to NTSC-J CRT apart from the “cinema mode” and "game mode. This has been carried over to today’s Japan HDTVs, and some models even switch automatically according to broadcast information. (BRAVIA as an example)

I don’t know who the art director is.

@alexb3d

This is the “RetroArch Shock” effect, many of us are suffering from this.

This is troubling…

[alexb3d]

@Ranmori

At the time of production, it was usually produced at 6500K on a Professional CRT. However, Pokemon Shock did not check switching to 9300K. Furthermore, the Professional CRT is quite dark in brightness. I think the cause is this.

And they are still used in color grading (although some use it to play ). I had no idea, interesting fact. Clearly they missed that detail perhaps because of production pressure, but not only that. The pattern changes of contrasts or intermittent colors produce disorders in most people and in 1/2% photosensitive epilepsy, of that % most are children under 12 years. When producing for children, special care must be taken with what is placed on the screen. 6 seconds of this, it’s crazy.

4.6 million views and only 685 children affected? As they say in my town
“Les salió barato” [ 彼らにとっては安かった ]

@Ranmori

I think this is the same problem as the possibility of developing a disease called “strabismus” when children are given VR goggles to wear today.

I’m scared of the games and animations of today, they are overloaded with everything, they pass on screen at the speed of light, and not to mention VR. That will bring consequences in the future, like the smarphone, you will remember me.

"anime mode? I never cease to be amazed by the Japanese standards, they take care of everything in detail. It’s nice to talk to you, I always learn a lot of things.

[Ranmori]

@alexb3d

4.6 million views and only 685 children affected? As they say in my town

According to information from Japan 345,000 viewers between the ages of 4 and 12.

That data of 685 is the number of people transported to the hospital. It is said that many more were sickened or had only temporary seizures. About several thousand people. According to some information, 3,000 to 4,000 people.

I was a student, and some of my classmates were absent the next day, and others came to school even though they were supposed to have seen Pokemon. That person said that he felt sick. lol

Of course I watched it too. I remember it was quite flickering, but just at that time, the CRT was an older model, so it was designed to go beyond its brightness limit and become dark. Therefore, it was enough to make my eyes tired. I also have siblings, and all four of them were fine, with only sore eyes.

@alexb3d

"anime mode? I never cease to be amazed by the Japanese standards, they take care of everything in detail. It’s nice to talk to you, I always learn a lot of things.

To prevent similar accidents from occurring, the CRT side monitored the brightness in real time in case the production side failed to check the brightness, and if it was too bright, it would darken the image on its own.

Watch the animated movie “Adieu Galaxy Express 999” on a CRT, will see a very flashy depiction of the whirlpools in the last scene when 999 enters the Andromeda Galaxy, but the CRT darkened it by itself. DVD or Blu-ray is processed to be dark from the beginning.

I think there was probably a countermeasure to the high-speed flashing contents that existed before the Pokemon shock.

And just for the record, I’d like to add. Not all Consumer CRTs have these “anime mode”.

But big Japanese manufacturers like SONY/Panasonic/TOSHIBA/HITACHI/SHARP/SANYO/MITSUBISHI have those functions.

[Ranmori]

This incident also applies to games.
It is common in FC/NES/FDS/SFC/SNES, but there are differences between cartridges and Virtual Console + Switch Online, with the latter having slower flashing lights and other effects that are slower or cut.

[alexb3d]

@Ranmori

According to information from Japan 345,000 viewers between the ages of 4 and 12.

1% is 3450, the approximate mentioned, and assuming that most of them felt uneasy, that had to be quite an event, I would have liked to live it. What would they talk about in class?

Having automatic TV control is a great option for old content, although for new content, codecs should do the job, it is the standard. There are even digital editing tools that mark overexposed colors.

I don’t remember having seen something similar in retro games, there was one that I can’t remember that had a lot of flashes, but we always removed it because it caused discomfort.

But flash patterns and colors can’t be corrected, although they should be, it’s something simple (I think a shader can do it). Also the movement patterns, shape and color compositions and the narrative itself generate emotional states and old age that together with all the technical aspects, make a bomb. That’s why a correct art direction/supervision is important.

A reference may be. Do you know why people stare at a painting for hours?
At the end of the tour of a Monet museum in New York, there is an outpatient clinic for people who have symptoms after the tour. O_o

The brain can be hacked to mimic the effect.
Open the pattern and the painting in full screen.
Look at the pattern (at the center point) for 30 seconds and immediately switch to the painting.
Similar to this is what it looks like.

映画を紹介してくれてありがとう。
すぐに観るつもりだ。

[Ranmori]

I’m quitting this discussion because my eyes are going crazy.

@alexb3d

映画を紹介してくれてありがとう。 すぐに観るつもりだ。

If you are going to see “Adieu Galaxy Express 999”, I suggest you also see its predecessor, “Galaxy Express 999”, as a set.

Although “Galaxy Express 999” is a complete film, it became a sequel with the appearance of the sequel “Adieu Galaxy Express 999”.

The viewing order is “Galaxy Express 999” -> “Adieu Galaxy Express 999”

There is also a third film, “Galaxy Express 999: Eternal Fantasy,” but that one is a failure and not worth watching. It was a set of two movies, one before and one after, but it was a failure, so the second part was never made. I doubt if it was even released overseas before that.

[alexb3d]

But, if you saw the effect on the paint?
Better to change the subject, it creates dizziness.

The Japanese have a habit of constantly changing the subject.

Thanks for the recommendations. I had already seen that there were several, that it is also the continuation of the anime, and that “Galaxy Express 999” was released a year before it ended up revealing the ending. LOL

[Ranmori]

@alexb3d

But, if you saw the effect on the paint? Better to change the subject, it creates dizziness.

Around the time you posted about advanced technology and images of swirls, I decided that there was no end to this story. It is too high level.

@alexb3d

The Japanese have a habit of constantly changing the subject.

I don’t deny that. lol