Please don’t get upset and unload a wall of text on me just because I disagree with your suggestion.
The solution is to just use the regular layout and accept that it’s not quite as good as it would be on a display with a regular structure. Or for the people developing the shaders to get access to multiple displays with which to develop the shaders on.
Presumably for those LCDs that for whatever reason have a rotated panel. Certainly not for RWBG OLEDs, as that would require its own layout given the issues that can be seen on both of the current ones.
There are obviously issues with both, but to my eye and at various distances the regular RGB one ends up looking more normal/usable than the BGR. And I’m not going to go check now but I remember noticing the same thing on my 55" C9 with the same layout at 4K as well. But either way, having the CRT phosphors laid out as RBG throws off the color dynamics on a lot of sprites/textures and makes the presentation inauthentic to the point where you might not want to be using a CRT shader anyway.
Maybe it would require some kind of different subpixel processing to achieve a better spacing? I don’t really know, I’m sure it could be improved if the people who knew what they were doing had these displays and a macro lens to play around with. But I’m really not too concerned, it looks fine as it is for most uses. Plus I’m sure it’s better on the newer Gen 2.5 RGWB panels, and the Gen 3.5 RGB ones should be coming out within a couple of years and then it wouldn’t matter anyway.
But hey, thanks for getting me to waste my afternoon.
Proceeds to unload a wall of text just because I disagreed with the way you disagreed with my suggestion.
This is funny. Hey, I’m all about constructive discussion. I just didn’t appreciate your approach and I said what I had to say and made my point and addressed a number of things in the process.
I don’t know what some people’s issue is with “too many words/walls of text” as if it is some crime or sin. I roll my own way. So it doesn’t matter.
Listen, I’m really glad that I actually got you to finally contribute to finding a solution to this seemingly long standing issue. Posting those subpixel shots is very useful. This is exactly where things started at 4K resolution before the correct mask layout was stumbled upon possibly by accident.
I don’t have a 1440p OLED display to test these with and I probably could have just ran my 4K one at 1440p without scaling if it was working.
All hope is not lost though. I remember when @guest.r made a change to the shader to better align the BGR Mask Layout and it completely broke the subpixel alignment at 4K on my OLED TV and he was kind enough to quickly revert this change.
This makes me think that it’s suitability for WRGB OLED (at least at 4K) was possibly coincidental.
The starting subpixel is also a factor by the way and Guest-CRT-Advanced’s BGR is actually RBG so it’s not equivalent to Sony Megatron Color Video Monitor’s BGR.
Assuming 4K WRGB OLED Panel and a 1440p OLED Panel are identical at the subpixel level, I think it might be possible to have improved alignment.
Subpixel layout looks exactly the same as any other WRGB OLED Panel to me.
One thing I just remembered @DevonCM did you know that if you took a 4K WOLED display and use CRT-Guest-Advanced’s Mask Layout 1 (or Sony Megatron Color Video Monitor’s RWBG (OLED) Subpixel Layout and you rotated your display 180° then used Windows Display settings to correctly orient your desktop, you could have perfect RGB “Phosphor” order on an OLED!
Now I don’t know what’s going on at 1440p but maybe with enough interest the same can probably be done at that resolution.
RTINGS even recommends this method as a way to get improved text clarity.
I’m not sure if anyone has tried to figure out why Guest’s Mask Layout 1 works but we do know that since the White Subpixel is always Off if we’re using Full Strength Masks with no additional bloom or anything, that creates a natural wider gap between the Red Subpixel and the Blue Subpixel. So you’ll have Red Gap (left by white subpixel) Blue Green or depending on which subpixel you start on that can be Blue Green Red Gap (left by white subpixel). Rotate that 180° and it becomes Gap (left by white subpixel) Red Green Blue Gap (left by white subpixel) or depending on where you start Red Green Blue Gap (left by white subpixel).
This is something interesting @hunterk said regarding non RGB layout masks at 1440p. Could be useful for those who wish to improve the WRGB OLED experience at that resolution:
This is factually incorrect and needs to be qualified. If you’re having issues with Mask Layouts on 1440p WOLED displays then say that but CRT-Guest-Advanced’s Mask Layout 1 works perfectly with 4K WOLED Displays and also BGR LCD Displays, while Sony Megatron Color Video Monitor’s RWBG (OLED) - Display Subpixel Layout works perfectly with 4K WOLED Displays.
Your 1440p WOLED issue with not being able to achieve proper subpixel alignment here is different. 4K WOLED has been “solved” for some years now.
My main question was directed mostly towards Guest’s existing Reshade ports that are in need of a update and some presets, mainly now with the Doom Ports.
there is this preset i stumbled upon for retroarch on which i would love to see translated into Retroarch Guest Advanced https://pastebin.com/h6pvMxcK
First time of me seeing the different subpixel combinations with the guest mask size/rgb/rbg switch ups on a OLED so thanks for posting those pics up. I don’t know what it is but something about OLED subpixels I really don’t like, it’s not just the extra “white” that they added to it either.
I’ve been hoping in all this time I’ve held out on buying a OLED that some company would make a standard RGB subpixel layout type but it seems it’s gonna be this new “WRGB” madness here on out. Guess I’ll be sticking with my standard 4k lcd and just make the best of it until it dies out.
The Reshade port is really up-to-date. There are some dynamic resolution change features which can’t be ported and slightly better performance with corner/border functionality. No visual changes are to be gained by updating to the latest guest-advanced version.
@DevilSingh did a splendid port and there are no hurries for the “new corner”.
Those pics @DevonCM posted are not how things look on a 4K OLED at least not mine. That’s from a 1440p monitor.
I’ve been posting photos of OLED Subpixels for years now and all of those masks work properly using Mask Layout 1 on my 4K OLED TV.
Also, in those pics that @DevonCM posted there seem to be additional subpixels being lit for example the Mask 10 BGR one. This could be due to the Shader Parameters allowing colours other than the Phosphor primaries to be lit.
Stuff like this has been discussed extensively in the Sony Megatron Color Video Monitor and even mitigated by the implementation of a Mask Accurate Mode which clamps the phosphor primaries to the RGB subpixel colours so that no extra subpixel are lit.
In my Mega Bezel presets, I haven’t encountered that.
What I’m seeing here is an opportunity to explore and find solutions to these anomalies but that’s just me.
If you’re interested in learning and seeing more you can read up on the Sony Megatron Color Video Monitor thread from a couple years ago and also the OLED Subpixels: How Do They Work? thread.
I’m getting a vibe here that folks here are willing to throw in the towel too easily but that’s just my opinion.
@DevonCM what happens when you use Mask 12, Layout 1 BGR? Do you mind posting pics of that when you get a chance?
Pay attention to the highly zoomed in pics which show the individual subpixels elements as the ones which are zoomed out might be more affected by camera optics.
I see the shots, it’s cool. I just find those little 5 circles that make up each triad subpixel line weird looking instead of it being a solid line. I’m not here to knock anyone using a OLED, that’s their cup of tea was just sharing my opinion with DevonCM. Besides I’ve never personally used a OLED in person so I can’t give too much of my two cents on the matter, just going off screen shots.
Anyway I’m going back to playing in the lab, I hardly have time these days for anything so I gotta make every minute count when I get some free time.
That’s impossible to see with the naked eye. Those are actually the elements that make up the subpixel elements.
Stuff like that is not exclusive to OLED panels though. In my “dissertation”/wall of text, I showed pics from my Toshiba Regza’s VA panel and those subpixels are made up of some vertical strips. So basically what you’re talking about is microscopic stuff. It looks like a straight line to the naked eye. If you zoom in some of the more zoomed out shots you can see this.
What’s common in all of these pics is the use of the RRGGBBX Mask, which is what’s used in CRT-Guest-Advanced Mask 12 but the layout used is RRBBGGX or Layout 1 in CRT-Guest-Advanced and RWBG (OLED) in Sony Megatron Color Video Monitor.
1440p (WOLED) probably just needs some more work to find something that works. 4K is fine.
Man, seeing is believing. It is extremely impactful from a CRT emulation perspective. All of these things we’ve been “wasting” energy and time on discussing is only relevant from up close to the screen literally nose to screen or in photos. You don’t see any issues even with messed up and mismatched layouts. Colours look correct as well. Getting the subpixels aligned is just the icing on the cake.
The micro contrast and lack of blooming is just phenomenal on OLED.
I’m really eyeing MiniLED though because it’s not nice having to worry about burn-in if this is what you’ll be using the display for primarily. My experience is with an ancient OLED and it is said that things have improved but I wouldn’t want to be the guinea pig though.
The thing is, the MiniLED sets that can give OLED some serious competition are basically more expensive making it easy to just buy another OLED.
The next things that is amazing about OLED is the viewing angle. You can watch from anywhere and things are going to look good and saturated with virtually no noticeable colour shift or additional blooming.
From another perspective, CRT Shaders can also look awesome on LCDs but the thing with LCDs in general are the things that can be visible which just shouldn’t be a part of the image, mostly the blooming, flashlighting, low contrast, lack of true blacks. Those things take away from an otherwise more than acceptable image.
OLED has none of those things present in the image.
One more thing about (at least LG and Sony) OLED TVs is that is that they usually come with very accurate calibration out of the box.
On the flip side LCD’s can generally and more easily get brighter than OLED displays and that helps immensely with realistic CRT Emulation when you take into consideration all the stuff that darkens the image like the CRT Mask and scanlines. Then, extra brightness is needed if we want to use things like BFI.
You’re describing the small height of the subpixel elements and the resulting large gap between lines. This does look bad zoomed in and probably isn’t ideal for this CRT stuff, but in normal use I think it actually helps give a smoother appearance since the pixels end up being “dots” more than “blocks” and the distance between gives it a sort of texture.
Also you might have missed it but the newer monitors coming out are using the “Gen 2.5” panels with an updated/improved RGWB layout, and late next year they’ll be making “Gen 3.5” with RGB. So don’t write off OLED just because of what you’re seeing of my year-and-a-half-old first-generation display.
Modern sample-and-hold displays have a lot of issues, but considering what’s currently available there’s very little reason to choose something other than an OLED for most gaming/media use. And I’d take all of these subpixel oddities and burn-in/brightness concerns every single day over the backlight-bleed IPS-glow non-black LCD trash that I had to use for so many years.
One thing to add to this is that in order to capture this level of detail of something so bright, the ISO (light sensitivity) on the camera had to be set to a very low value. Under normal viewing and photography conditions most of these elements would be so glowy (bloomy) that they would just blend together and look like one single light. Sort of like how you don’t notice the individual LED modules on LED bulbs.
As a matter of fact if the ISO isn’t lowered its almost impossible to capture the mask in an area with both light and dark detail since the mask would be lost in the bloom on the brighter objects.
This is sort of how our eyes might see things on a real CRT. It doesn’t mean that the CRT Mask (and Scanlines) are not there on very bright objects on a real CRT though. So some preset creators try to setup their presets with the Mask and Scanlines still fully intact and allow light, optics and physics to create the dynamics and illusions which cause them to appear to blend, bloom or glow, while others tend to bake these effects into their presets and that requires additional subpixels to be engaged in order to display these elements. Each approach has its pros and cons.
That’s pretty much all I’d want out of a OLED if I’m using that for retro gaming and shaders, I at least need something as simple as getting a standard RGB subpixel correct on my display if I’m trying to match the subpixels of a crt of the 90’s using RetroArch shaders. Some may see that as a small trivial issue but I see that as the foundation in itself, if it’s not plain RGB I simply don’t want to deal with it. I refuse to give in to these new OLEDS just because it’s the “new thing” and has perfect blacks and all that other stuff. My views on this matter stem based on the fact I would be using a OLED 90 percent of the time retro gaming on it with guest.r’s godlike shader using masks 6, 10 and 12. In any case I’ll be looking forward to that when those come around.
OLED and 90 percent of the time retro gaming on it with Guest.R’s awesome Shader might be a no no due to risk of burn-in.
With OLED displays you have to vary your content. Like any one thing too much at your own peril.
Have you considered looking at MiniLED TVs/Displays?
@Nesguy copped an awesome deal on 1,000 nit one a little while ago and has been very satisfied but not necessarily with the local dimming when using CRT shaders.
This has me a bit skeptical and I know from reviews that local dimming performance can vary a lot between different models and manufacturers.
Sony seems to have made a game changing breakthrough with thier finely detailed back light control and processing, so I’m thinking that perhaps that might be the low bar where MiniLED is just better overall than OLED for these things but it isn’t cheap.
There are contenders like TCL and Hisense which are really pushing the envelope as well when it comes to number of dimming zones and brightness but it remains to be seen how they match up on reliability, build quality and processing in a CRT Shader scenario.
I’m thinking that maybe next hear year might be a huge year for this technology as others try to catch up to Sony and or mimic or compete with their advancements.
Even so, what if the Sony panels might end up being BGR instead of RGB?
Display manufacturers don’t care about what people like us want out of their displays.
Never looked into those. A quick search says they’re brighter than OLED. Regardless if they’re not standard RGB I wouldn’t waste my money or time on it.
Then I will not be buying anything, it’s RGB or nothing lol. This whole generation of new tvs will go right by me and I’ll just continue using my standard 4k LCD and I’ll be just fine with that. But let’s see what the future brings.
The thing is you can turn a BGR panel into an RGB panel if you rotate it 180°. You’ll have to rotate your content like your desktop using software though. Windows can do that.
The 65" Sony Bravia 9 is actually BGR. It uses a VA panel and many if not most of those are BGR. Most IPS panels seem to be RGB. Some Mini LED TVs use IPS.
It’s insane how much brighter it is than a typical OLED TV though. You can read all about it in that review above. LG has a new Mini LED TV on the market as well (QNED90T) but I don’t think it’s Local Dimming algorithm is as good as Sony’s (It’s not). It might be IPS (most models seem to be VA (BGR) but some might include IPS (RGB). I’m looking forward to RTINGS’ upcoming review on it. (It’s out and I’m not too impressed).
The 75" Model of this TV uses an ADS Pro panel this is similar to IPS and should be RGB.
While OLED has its advantages for CRT Shaders, high brightness LED/LCDs and MiniLEDs haven’t really been tried and tested yet and high brightness is one of the ingredients that might be missing for a much more realistic CRT Shader experience. It’s something I would like to experience first hand.
Typical OLED TV Peak 2% Window brightness tops out at around 800 nits.
This Sony Bravia 9 can do almost 3,000nits in a 2% Window! Can you imagine how amazing Shaders will look with that kind of illumination?
Then there should be more than enough headroom for BFI while remaining extre bright. I remember @Nesguy was dreaming about these things when he wrote his thread on the best TVs for CRT Emulation some years ago.
Hi. Can someone please explain mask types? I need settings for 1080p. Also I use both retroarch and reshade port and mask types go by different numbers in them, so I’m a bit confused. Which mask type is a good aperture grille or slot mask for 1080p?
Guest, despite not being accurate, I like b&w masks, they give me a cleaner look to me. But could I be doing something wrong about RGB masks? Do they need a trick to work properly or is just a matter of preference? I know about the RGB/BGR setting, though it makes no difference in my case. I’m on a 1080p screen.
Good RGB aperture setups are always a somewhat artistic challenge. I would take a look at @Hari-82 presets for 1080p, they are really nice.
Otherwise, they look best with advanced mask mitigation like bloom or/and halation + scanline tweaking. You should set mask strengths to full before using bloom/halation.
