When NTSC filter is mandatory?

[soqueroeu]

When NTSC filter is mandatory?

I have some questions about the NTSC filter: Do we have any links on how they work?

Is it safe to keep it as default for 100% of games? Or would it be better to activate this filter only for a list of specific games?

I often see mention of NTSC to fix Sonic’s waterfalls on modern displays. I understand, old CRTs didn’t have this problem. But can we assume that all 8 and 16-bit systems took advantage of this feature? Arcades too?

Do we have a list of games that will require the use of this filter?

It seems to me that the NTSC filter considerably dirties the image along with the solution it delivers. It’s been a long time since I played on real CRT TVs and I don’t have memories of them being as dirty as the ones I see when I activate this filter.

Would you like to know your opinion?

Grateful.

[Fab]

In my opinion NTSC is always mandatory on console games. It is the only way to have a nice pixel blending effect, pixel art the way it was intended to appear.

It’s not only the famous Sonic’s waterfalls, or the transparency effect in a lot of SNES games: it’s the way pixel combine, all over the screen. Compare RGB to NTSC: in the first, you’ll see a certain blockiness. It’s perfectly fine if you like the RGB look the most, though. But once you get used to NTSC, you don’t go back.

In addition, using a shader gives you a lot of way to get rid of the “bad” and keep only the “good”: for example, Genesis’ composite connection was terrible, low resolution, bland, but with a shader you can achieve not only its famous dithering, but also a nice, colorful image.

Arcade games: different thing. They were connected to the monitor via RGB. So, just use that.

[Hyllian]

I agree that NTSC is what best presents the way old games should look like. Though I can’t bear the color distortion it introduces, so I always use RGB, :P!

I think NTSC on a real CRT isn’t so bad as it appear on an LCD panel. I don’t know, maybe the NTSC effects add to the bad time response present in LCDs, which gives you color distortions plus motion blur.

[soqueroeu]

Thanks a lot @Fab and @Hyllian !

I would love to learn how to properly use this NTSC filter feature. Maybe I haven’t yet seen a shader/preset with this NTSC filter properly configured, that really makes sense.

If anyone can post images and the method used to achieve the result, I would be very grateful.

[hunterk]

IMO, it’s all down to preference. I think there’s been a pendulum swing too far in the direction of “omg I should never see any dithering” when there are many instances of very visible dithering on platforms where there was no chance of seeing it otherwise (e.g., PC/DOS and arcade).

The fact is: dithering patterns were ubiquitous back in the day, and we were all used to seeing it. It wasn’t a big deal and nobody complained about it because it was all we knew.

[Elessar84]

In my opinion, using shaders - crt lottes along with Blarg NTSC S-Video video filters gives great results. Games on Sega Mega Drive / Genesis look like on a real CRT TV.

However, I have a small problem: Could someone explain to me how this option works in RA (Settings - Video - Video Filters - Blarrg_NTSC_SNES_Custom_psuedo_MD_S-Video)? Because many cores work without any problem with this filter. For example, the mentioned Sega Genesis (Gens plus GX Core), or Neo Geo CD (NeoCD core), but it does not work at all for MAME or Final Burn Neo. Is there any way to fix this?

[kokoko3k]

It seems an old joke among PAL users was:
NTSC: Never The Same Color.

I usually switch between on and off by current mood, but the objective rule should be to keep it on for 80/90’s consoles - for more accurate results.

[aorin1]

I was wondering this since shaders and effects to make these classics look more authentic and closer to the real thing became mainstream, specially in this forum, if you guys, shader developers and enthusiasts, if you still own original hardware and CRTs, have you already compared both side by side in real time with shaders and make the latter as close as possible to how the games look as you tweak them?

If so, how close can you get to a real tube TV/monitor?

[sonkun]

This right here sounds like the next step to make things look more authentic. I still got a Sega Saturn, the first PlayStation, N64, Sega Dreamcast and I think a Genesis all tucked away in storage but no crt. Had a 27 inch Toshiba but that broke down around 2013 and haven’t played on a crt since so I’ve been tweaking off jaded memory. If I get my hands on a crt again I would definitely tweak based what the crt is showing me

[soqueroeu]

@aorin1

if you guys, shader developers and enthusiasts, if you still own original hardware and CRTs, have you already compared both side by side in real time with shaders and make the latter as close as possible to how the games look as you tweak them?

This is a good point. I don’t develop shaders, but I greatly appreciate and respect this special work of the authors. I haven’t seen anything in CRT for a long time. I would really like to know how the most enthusiastic users here on the forum deal with this. I’m afraid I’m missing out on something good that hasn’t been widely publicized yet.

[soqueroeu]

@Elessar84

However, I have a small problem: Could someone explain to me how this option works in RA (Settings - Video - Video Filters - Blarrg_NTSC_SNES_Custom_psuedo_MD_S-Video)? Because many cores work without any problem with this filter. For example, the mentioned Sega Genesis (Gens plus GX Core), or Neo Geo CD (NeoCD core), but it does not work at all for MAME or Final Burn Neo. Is there any way to fix this?

It even fails for home systems, but the problem here is an infinite black screen, forcing me to restart Retroarch.

[Cyber]

@Elessar84

(Settings - Video - Video Filters - Blarrg_NTSC_SNES_Custom_psuedo_MD_S-Video)

@soqueroeu

It even fails for home systems

There’s a reason it’s called MD. MD = Megadrive = Genesis.

@Elessar84

but it does not work at all for MAME or Final Burn Neo. Is there any way to fix this?

It might be able to load at least using Final Burn Neo but there’s a setting that might need to be changed. Even if it does load, it may not have any effect on the image. Different cores output in different pixel formats so depending on which format is used, Blargg NTSC filters will or will not work.

Additionally arcade boards and CRTs used RGB signal, so there’s no need for any use of NTSC filters at least on those.

The Filter presets work on most emulated consoles and for the cores they won’t work on for example Nestopia and Messen, you can use the built-in Blargg Filters in the Core Options.

Even BSNES now has Blargg NTSC filters built-in. If you want to use the custom filter presets, you can use SNES 9X.

Likewise, Beetle PSX doesn’t seem to work with the filter presets however I’m told that they do work with Beetle PSX HW.

Finally, those presets included in RetroArch are my first gen work, for additional and updated versions do take a look at my CyberLab Custom Blargg NTSC Video Filter Presets pack.

[Nesguy]

@soqueroeu

It seems to me that the NTSC filter considerably dirties the image along with the solution it delivers. It’s been a long time since I played on real CRT TVs and I don’t have memories of them being as dirty as the ones I see when I activate this filter.

CRT TVs, especially those toward the end of the CRT era, had all kinds of hardware sharpening methods which aren’t always replicated by NTSC shaders.

An NTSC shader without sharpening is like a 1970s TV or something, before the introduction of comb filters.

Have you tried the different sharpening methods in guest-NTSC? I think it gets us very close to what composite video could look like on a CRT with a good comb filter, like a Sony FD Wega.

I do tend to prefer composite video blending in a lot of cases, but I still want the image to be sharp and vivid. The exception would be games designed explicitly for RGB video, like arcade games.

White text looking nice and sharp against a dark background:

Still blends the Sonic waterfall completely:

[DariusG]

What ever cable came with each console became the “default” used by developers. So composite for md/snes/ms/nes and all those artifacts were there. Snes imo looks better on rgb and some MD games too. Old computers as C64, Zx spectrum too were rf I think. Amstrad, Amiga, ST, PC were RGB. Also RGB cable has way better and more rich colors compared to composite (washed out) if I remember we’ll.

[Nesguy]

@DariusG

Also RGB cable has way better and more rich colors compared to composite (washed out) if I remember we’ll.

This is heavily dependent on the comb filter, on a late-model Wega composite is almost identical to S-video. On an older set you’d see a lot of color loss.

[DariusG]

@Nesguy

An NTSC shader without sharpening is like a 1970s TV or something, before the introduction of comb filters.

I have an Amiga on RGB and a separate Composite modulator too, modulator blends all dithering to a new color while the image is still very sharp on an early 2000s CRT. The dot crawl is there, colors aren’t washed out, well maybe a little. Mostly like the dithering shaders like mdapt etc with dot crawl and a bit of color bleed

[Cyber]

@DariusG

Old computers as C64

My old Commodore 64 + Commodore 1502 Monitor had Luma + Chroma input at the rear and that’s what we used.

NES came with both RF and RCA Composite video cables.

SNES came with RF and Multi-Out for Composite video plus stereo audio.

TurboGrafx16 and Turbo Duo came with a special DIN cable which had RCA Composite video and stereo audio on the other end.

[Cyber]

You could add Commodore 1702 monitors to the list of very high quality CRT screens, even when composite input was used.

[DariusG]

I had a Spectrum 48k I remember it had RF as default. I had a 1040 STE too once, connected that with RF to an 80s CRT, absolutely terrible image lol. Worst I ever seen. Tons of artifacts and color bleed, almost unreadable text. No one would ever want to reproduce that lol. Trust me

[soqueroeu]

I remember seeing videos of people modifying their consoles to emit an RGB signal. Do they really seem to be going against the grain?